the wolf who cried STACK!

[Katotsu]

Is that directed at me?

[prang]

should I be switching teams more then? normally i end up top scoring and i don't mess with balancing cause i assume it'll be done automatically

only if you believe that patronizing your opponent with tf2 training wheels is going to be helpful.

I'd rather play on a community server with friends than stomp a group of opponents over and over.

I can respect your attitude and perspective on this but if you are in a situation like people are complaining about is it actually fun for you?



One of the worst experiences I ever had in TF2 was playing on the rotation server one time while my team was rolling on dustbowl. I was goofing around a bit playing a silly demo knight but our team was crushing on offense. All I had to do to contribute was pipe spam a little bit and clean up scouts and spies behind our heavies. My score was getting silly with about 40 kills to 10 deaths over a couple rounds. Sounds fun so far.

We had a young kid on our team who was talking a lot on the mic. He sounded about 8 or 9 years old and had no idea what was going on but he was having a blast on pyro. He kept up a stream of chatter and although his comms and his play did not contribute much he brought the mood of the team up. He was so obviously happy to be playing with people who were talking to each other that it put a smile on my face hearing his random squeaky voice chime in.

When we switched to defense a few people left but most of our team was the same. We lost point A, held pretty well at the final point, and then mulched the other team for 6-8 minutes. With only a few minutes to go we cleared the upper tunnel and pushed them back to first point. Still just goofing around I charged down the valley towards their spawn and chopped a pyro's head off with my guaranteed crit. By the time I clued in that it was the little kid from our team he had already left the server.

Instead of some of our experienced players going over to blue when their team started to dissolve the server took the bottom and most recent players to balance teams. This kid went from having a great time playing with a smile on his face to being stuck on a team full of people dying over and over for 10 minutes. Sometimes a team doesn't have people with high enough levels of skill to compete. Sometimes a team needs someone willing to speak up and start organizing a capable push or defense.

Would I have had less fun if I noticed what was going on and switched in his place? Probably. If I switched and we won it would have been way more satisfying though. Would red team have had less fun if blue had finally managed to scramble together and win the second point with a few minutes left to go? That is what the poll is asking I guess. I answered briefly but I have more fun playing as a team than just racking up kills. If my competition is 9 year old children and my team isn't even being challenged I might as well be playing a single player game. At least then I wouldn't feel like an e-bully when I realize I'm not being much fun to play with.

[trilobite]

Well said, prang.

In my view, casual games like TF2 are a balance of joy and sadness; gratification and disappointment; mystery and discovery; creativity and routine; power and weakness; superiority and inferiority; notoriety and anonymity; togetherness and loneliness; glory and humiliation; fun and boredom; victory and defeat. As long as the balances of all these factors, on average, trend toward the positive, I’m good. “Controlling the capture point” is the excuse that sets in motion the whacky action across the map. And it is this spontaneous, madcap experience that feeds my motivations to play. My team could lose over and over, but as long as those are hard-fought and close battles, and as long as I feel that I am playing well and that my teammates are playing well, it may not matter.
I have written about finding my joy in Team Fortress before.

[Cat Square]

I don't teamswap, but that doesn't mean I enjoy crushing less experienced players.

playing as a team and watching newer players really enjoy themselves is some of the best stuff video gaming has to offer, but that needs to happen organically, not through imposition. the magic of tf2 pubs is that epic clashes can crop up out of nowhere through sheer serendipitous class makeup and player distribution. when im on a team that's rolling over and over, I do feel bad, but I don't showboat or stuff it in anyones face -- I chastise anyone who does. if players can't handle losing and rage because of it, better it happen against good sport opponents than some other less respectful types out there on the internet.
basically, im not here to manage anyones tf2 experience in any way.

[cam]

We're discussing this issue because people feel like there's a problem with stacking on tv6. People with lower skill sometimes feel like they end up on a team full of newbies against a team stacked full of experienced regulars. One camp feels the solution is for some of the regulars to switch teams to balance the teams out. The other camp believes that if the enemy team takes charge of their situation and uses comms and teamwork, they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Hmmmmm, sounds like there's a political analogy in there somewhere.

We've discussed this to death. Both sides are right.
It's not ok for team of experienced regulars to keep rolling teams of new people game after game. And I'm talking about sustained rolls. People should not be crying "OMG WTF STAX" after their first loss even if you feel like the teams are stacked. If you are a regular on a team of newbies, it is YOUR responsibility to teach them the Dustbowl meta. That means asking engies to move nests to the right locations. That means asking your medics to build ubers in safe locations. That means working with your teammates to defend their engies and medics. We have a very well defined meta on TV6 and everyone knows that sometimes the slightest screwups mean disaster. Try not to see losses as failures but as learning opportunities for your new friends.

Also one quick thing, we need to stop telling people they suck. Over the last couple nights I've heard regs use some language over comms that I only find myself using while my mic is turned off. Please please please, if you hear someone start bashing a newbie who just needs some guidance remind them what it means to be part of this community. We all get frustrated when playing sometimes, but if you need to take it out on someone it might be better to just walk away for a little while.




And finally, it's time for people to put on their big boy/girl pants and play the freaking game.

[ADevilishPotato]

Also one quick thing, we need to stop telling people they suck. Over the last couple nights I've heard regs use some language over comms that I only find myself using while my mic is turned off.

well this shouldn't be happening anytime, anywhere...no excuses for that from ANYONE let alone regulars.

[Maple Man]

We're discussing this issue because people feel like there's a problem with stacking on tv6. People with lower skill sometimes feel like they end up on a team full of newbies against a team stacked full of experienced regulars. One camp feels the solution is for some of the regulars to switch teams to balance the teams out. The other camp believes that if the enemy team takes charge of their situation and uses comms and teamwork, they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Hmmmmm, sounds like there's a political analogy in there somewhere.

We've discussed this to death. Both sides are right.
It's not ok for team of experienced regulars to keep rolling teams of new people game after game. And I'm talking about sustained rolls. People should not be crying "OMG WTF STAX" after their first loss even if you feel like the teams are stacked. If you are a regular on a team of newbies, it is YOUR responsibility to teach them the Dustbowl meta. That means asking engies to move nests to the right locations. That means asking your medics to build ubers in safe locations. That means working with your teammates to defend their engies and medics. We have a very well defined meta on TV6 and everyone knows that sometimes the slightest screwups mean disaster. Try not to see losses as failures but as learning opportunities for your new friends.

Also one quick thing, we need to stop telling people they suck. Over the last couple nights I've heard regs use some language over comms that I only find myself using while my mic is turned off. Please please please, if you hear someone start bashing a newbie who just needs some guidance remind them what it means to be part of this community. We all get frustrated when playing sometimes, but if you need to take it out on someone it might be better to just walk away for a little while.




And finally, it's time for people to put on their big boy/girl pants and play the freaking game.

Here's a common issue that keeps happening to me. When I tell an new player engineer to move his gear up, in voice command and in chat, they never listen. Even if I spam in chat, they don't respond nor do they even react. When that happens, I end up sitting next to them calling them a spy. As much as I'd like to help, there isn't much I can do if they refuse to listen. Got anything to fix that mess?
If I keep spamming, I'd be told to stfu

[cam]

Yeah, i don't know what it is about engys on dustbowl, either mape. sometimes you just gotta play engy yourself.

lol

[Cat Square]

yeah you have to do it yourself. you have to show them how.

[black_and_blue]

I'd just like to point out the current poll results, which I think is absolutely ideal:

Attacking 30% 30% [ 12 ]
Defending 30% 30% [ 12 ]
No opinion 40% 40% [ 16 ]

We really have exactly half of the people preferring attacking, and the other half preferring defending, which I think is great for balance!

[flyingdutchman]

We're discussing this issue because people feel like there's a problem with stacking on tv6. People with lower skill sometimes feel like they end up on a team full of newbies against a team stacked full of experienced regulars. One camp feels the solution is for some of the regulars to switch teams to balance the teams out. The other camp believes that if the enemy team takes charge of their situation and uses comms and teamwork, they can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Hmmmmm, sounds like there's a political analogy in there somewhere.

It's funny because I was thinking roughly the same through a lot of this discussion and how the Democracy vs. Republic views come through.

I play on TV6 a lot and I see a lot of the regulars play solid and sometimes I see some other folks on during off-peak times. I can't say that I've ever seen a regular (at least someone who I know is a regular) speak disparagingly towards another player who isn't a stand-out player like Purple Hippo, Spiff, Spanish, Soltan, et al. I don't see "newbs" take much aggression. However I do see folks come on and sometimes there is floundering. It's been said, tv6 is it's own bird. Most of us play it a lot and know what the expected play is. I've played with Snidely a ton on this map (confession: I ALSO checked my friends list trilo) and I appreciate his voice in this matter; there always needs to be good gamesmanship. I can't say if that depends on me forcing it or nurturing it. That seems to be the argument. I see both sides clearly and I would agree to what Cat Square and You'llneverwalkalone in specific ways. I think that a full team effort should always be the primary goal. I work on my loadouts and my class selection to best fit the team. If the score is 13-10 and people are crying STACK, i remind of the score and try to motivate. I don't consider myself a power player in any way, so I try to communicate and try to help as much as possible but I can't say that I'm always comfortable directing the action. Some players are great at it and I have benefited from it. There are times to let the team see what's happening and work it through. That said I will switch at times to "even out the teams" and make it more enjoyable for me.

This could go on forever, but I always think that upward and onward is a good direction. Thanks all of you for making me think about this. Alizee, I really liked that quote; I've used similar statements in Morale committee meetings at work. Everything starts with me.

See you on 6

[Cat Square]

Hmmmmm, sounds like there's a political analogy in there somewhere.

if only capitalism were more like tf2

[prang]

Hmmmmm, sounds like there's a political analogy in there somewhere.

if only capitalism were more like tf2

Then I could still be poor but at least I'd have some sweet hats!

[Cat Square]

Hmmmmm, sounds like there's a political analogy in there somewhere.

if only capitalism were more like tf2

Then I could still be poor but at least I'd have some sweet hats!

every once in a while you'd get a crit paycheck and make like $5k in a week

[CoyoteCreed]

The neoclassical growth model is a spy.